Share your queries about Chislehurst's past
Here we reproduce some recent enquiries we have received from members and others who are interested in Chislehurst people and places. We have provided information where we can, and hope that the enquiries and responses are of more general interest. If you can add to our response, please contact us. (We have had to edit some of the enquiries.)
You can access all our publications since 1966 (and one from 1961) on this site by clicking here.
General Queries
David Lockton's memories of Chislehurst - Cockpit 94
Two members have contacted us regarding David's article last autumn:
I was very interested to read the memories of Daisy Foreman and her brother David Lockton, because we bought their former home 21 Degema Road, our first house, from Harry Miller in 1974. Harry Miller was a builder and developer who built Degema Road. He had made money when he worked in Degema a river station and port in Nigeria, hence the name Degema Road. Harry lived in Degema Road and was very choosy about who he sold or rented his houses. His preference was policemen (hence the nickname Coppers Alley), ex soldiers with the minimum rank of warrant officer and civil servants. Although Mr Lockton had died many years before we bought the house, we continued to receive mail for Mr Lockton from various organisations, and I'm sure that many were addressed to Mr Lockton DCM.
Graham Bessant
David R.Lockton's Memories of Chislehurst were very interesting. He does refer to a cafe owned by Mr Wright in Park Road. Of course Doug Wright played for Kent. Joy Beverley was married to Billy Wright the footballer of Wolves and England fame. We lived in Finchley and the Beverley sisters all lived in North London.
Roger Faux
Captains John Hope (father and son) in the Hope family Tomb, St Nicholas Church
I wonder whether anyone can assist in confirming or otherwise, the inscription on the Hope Family tomb in St Nicholas churchyard, that appends R.N. to Capt. John Hope, who died June the 15 1764 aged 63 years and also to his son Capt. John Hope who died Jan 25 1791 aged 63 years. See Webb's History of Chislehurst "Index to Inscriptions in Chislehurst Churchyard" Page 430.The enquirer, one Richard Venn, who studies naval history, (Georgian) came to me, as, if you like, 'keeper of the church burial records', not as a road steward. He is unable to trace either Capt. John Hope as Royal Navy Captains, in the 'standard reference manuals': -
Charnock's Biographia Navalis, 6 vols 1794 - 1798;'Clowes 7 volumes';the Navy List for 1779.
The second and third have Charles Hope but no John.I have referred Richard to the diocesan records in Bromley, not only to the registers but to the parish 'magazines'.I wondered whether anyone could provide a short-cut for us? Were the Hopes Captains of merchantmen or perhaps Royal Marines.
Peter Appleby
Uncle Golly's Party
My husband used to live in Chislehurst as a child in the 1950s and remembers attending an annual summer party, probably on the common, which all the family really looked forward to. This was known by them as "Uncle Golly's Party"! Do you have any information on this, or who "Uncle Golly" was? Kind regards, Helen Tindall
Subject: Barkway & Clark, Burlington Parade.
Some fifty years ago I worked as a very young man in a shop on Burlington Parade, Chislehurst. The number of the shop was 62-64, High Street and it was named Barkway & Clark. They were decorators merchants and sold items such as paint & wallpaper. I remember both of my employers very well and Mr Barkway's first name was Sydney. I am wondering if there is anybody at the society who would know the first name of Mr Clark, he was known to everybody as Nobby. Mr Clark was a retired Policeman and had worked at Chislehurst Police Station. He later aquired another shop at Mottingham and I wonder if anyone can remember the name of this shop and it's location. I believe it was on Mottingham Road. I am researching all of the places I have worked at during my lifetime. I would be grateful of any help to answer my queries. Kind regards, David Terry.
Subject: Berkswich History Society
I wonder if you can help Berkswich History Society (Nr. Stafford)? We are in the process of writing a book about Weeping Cross House, which has recently been demolished and about the people who lived in the house. It was the family home of Thomas Salt, MP who married Emma Helen Mary Anderdon at Chislehurst Old Church on 24th July 1861. It would help us immensely if one of your members could research the local papers and see if there is an account of the wedding. I also note from your site that the Manning and Anderdon Armshouses are listed buildings. It it possible to give some history (and perhaps a photo) of these armshouses?
Any help you can give will be much appreciated.
Regards, Beryl Holt, Chairman, Berkswich History Society, 01785-665834
Subject: Historical EnquiryHello,
I am the archivist for the Institute of Science and Technology, Sheffield. As part of a series on laboratory suppliers, I am writing a short history of Collier (Scientific) Ltd for the journal of the British Society of Scientific Glassblowers. I would very much appreciate any pointers to who might know something about the company. Collier (Scientific) started about 1957 at Webbs Works, Queens Passage, Chistlehurst High Street and went out of business before 1986. They were stockist of Pyrex laboratory glassware. Apart from these facts, I have discovered little else about the firm.
Regards, Alan Gall.
I'm researching my family history, and have found my family living in Chatham House Chiselhurst, Kent, from 1918 onwards, name of Arthur and Florence or Florrie, sometimes Flora Rowlerson, any information at all on this House or family would be wonderful. Also my family lived at Woodcliffe, Summer Hill, Chiselhurst. I've had some rough information back on this house [which I think is no longer standing] but would like to know more, especialy around 1918 period. Again, any help at all would be great. Dave Hough.
Chatham House lies at the end of Goshill Road, and is still a family home. Woodcliffe was demolished, and the grounds are now taken over with Town Houses. We have little information about either house, thhough Darrell Spurgeon's book "Discover Chislehurst" refers to Chatham House.
Dear Sirs,
I know that Richard Stone once had property in Chislehurst, I know not
where or what type
of house it was. The name of it was Claremont. I would have thought
that it would have
been considerable as the Stones were Bankers in Lombard Street, London and
were
something to do with The Silver Vaults in London and the hallmarking of
silver.
Julia Stone married Admiral Richard Crozier and I know where all the portraits and painting
that Hung at Claremont in Chislehurst are currently.
I know that one of the estates was Hawkwood Lane/ Botany Bay Lane formerly
Thongs Lane on the west and bounded by Chislehurst Common and St. Paul Cray
Common on the North and East. That was in 1784.
Would you have any idea if Claremont still stands and if it does not
would you know
where it stood. Also I see that there is a Claremont Road in Bickley I
wonder
if that is connected in some way.
If you can help I would be most grateful,
Yours truly,
Martin Crozier
According to Webbs 'The History of Chislehurst' (occasionally available to purchase on ebay or abebooks), Richard Stone purchased land and property in Chislehurst in 1784. The house was known (and still is) as Coopers, and is situated on the east side of Hawkswood Lane. The estate consisted of fields and woodlands mainly to the east of the house, and by the time of Stone's death in 1802, it covered some 100 acres. Webb includes as a footnote on page 211 the lineage of the Stone family. Stone is buried in St Nicholas churchyard, with various other members of the family. George Stone lived here after his father's death, and in due course, after George's death (1844) it was sold to the Bowden family, who donated part of the land to arrange for the building of St Mary's Roman Catholic church opposite the house. This is where Napoleon III was buried after his death in exile at Chislehurst in 1873. The main house is now part of Coopers School, and is somewhat the worse for wear, but still standing. I can find no mention of a house called Claremont in Chislehurst. I hope this is helpful.
Dear Sirs,
As a student at Avery Hill College, I was resident at Cookham Dene House from 1972-6 when it was in good condition, surrounded on three sides by a substantial garden of several acres. The house and lodge were the last of three built in Manor Park by Philip, Maurice and, perhaps, Sir Aston Webb in 1883. The College apparently acquired the house for the sum of about £8,000.00 in 1948. Its plans are lodged at the British Museum and it was listed Grade II. It was sold by the college to the then Milk Marketing Board and re-christened Cookham Dene Manor (which is the name that appears on the BM plans). I am concerned, however that, though it appears on your Website among the listed buildings, on maps there appears to be a ‘Cookham Dene Close’ with no adjacent church or cathedral. Can it have been replaced by more ‘rancho’-style bungalows or has it been preserved. I am well aware that local authorities can sometimes be negligent in respect of planning applications and it would be a pity if this highly characteristic Webb house had been removed! I would be grateful if you could let me know about this, when convenient. If the house is still there, are there photographs available on the Web?
Hoping for your assistance
Nick Gunning
We believe that the house was designed by Sir Aston Webb around 1882 for his brother Edward ( co-author of "The History of Chislehurst"). It still stands, and the land to the east is still open. The land to the west is less so. Cookham Dene Close leads from the house to Manor Park. To the north of the Close is The Coach House, which looks contemporary, but to the south a small number of executive style houses have been built. However, they are reasonably hidden, as you can see from the attached photograph, (which shows the Coach House to the left, and Cookham Dene in the centre, though at a distance).
Does the building [Cranmore Place] that housed Harry Beasley’s Cranmore Museum still exist in Chislehurst and do you happen to know whether any printed catalogues may survive?
Many thanks. Anthony Hamber.
Cranmore Place was destroyed during the war, and no longer exists. It had an interesting history, being owned by the man who kept Camden Place ready as a bolt hole for Napoleon III. The Beasley collection survived the war, but has been broken up and is now at various museums, mainly in the UK. We are not aware of any catalogues.
I lived in the "Garage Flat" attached to Elmstead Glade in Walden Road
between the years 1949 - 1952. By then the whole house had been
converted into a number of flats but other parts of the house had
fallen into disrepair and were uninhabitable. I remember the large
gardens in which there was an outdoor swimming pool and tennis courts -
also in a state of disrepair.
Prior to 1948 I had spent the first year of my life living in the
thatched cottage (possibly two semi-detached dwellings at that time) in
Perry Street and my father worked at the farm next to it.
I would be very grateful if anyone in your society could help me with
any information about either of the two houses mentioned. I
particularly would like to know whether a photo exists of Elmstead
Glade (hopefully including the garage my family lived in).
Thanks
Colin White
Elmstead Glade was designed in 1886 by a well-known architect, Ernest Newton. Many of his houses still survive in Chislehurst, and in Bickley, where he lived. It was demolished, as were many other similar houses, in the post-war regeneration period. The only remnant of the original house is its former lodge, still standing in Walden Road. This was designed by Frank Atkinson in neo-Georgian style in 1910. I do not know of any photographs of the house, but it may be worth applying to the Royal Institute of British Architects, who have extensive archives. For example, Victorian journals, such as The Builder, regularly featured illustrations, as line drawings, of new houses by well-known architects. One problem with these is that specific locations within an area are rarely given, and names of houses can change. So 'a new house in Chislehurst by Ernest Newton' may be all that we are told! I have access to a modern thesis about Newton's work, but it relates only to what is still standing, or to his really famous houses.
The Thatched Cottage in Perry Street was originally built, probably in the early 19th century, as farm workers cottages relating to Butts Farm farther along Perry Street. The farmhouse became a gentleman's residence renamed Frogpool, and survives as a saddlery and riding stables, and the thatched cottages have also been in private hands for many years. Farming in the immediate neighbourhood ceased soon after the Second World War. The two buildings are now separated from each other by Thompsons' Nurseries, and because of modern extensive alterations to the junction of Perry Street with the A20 the thatched cottages are below road level and rather hidden from view by hedges and fences.
I wonder if anyone in your society could help me.
I am trying to trace my family history. My grandmother was born in
Chislehurst in 1884. I've just found her birth certificate and the address
where she was born was Furzefield Cottage.
I know her father was Head Gardener at a large house, and that they lived in
an estate cottage.
I think there was a large house in Chislehurst called Furzefield House, so I
am presuming that this was where he worked as a gardener.
The period would be about 1880 until he retired in about 1915/18.
My grandmother was a pupil teacher at the Girl's Primary school in
Chislehurst. She then went on to train as a proper teacher, qualifying in
1906.
I would be really grateful if anyone could shed any light on the whereabouts
of Furzefield House and if it still remains today.
Thank you in anticipation.
Yours John H Brown
Could you please tell me if The Manor House, Chislehurst still stands? I have a letter dated 1877 from that address (yet to be fully transcribed) and am curious about the house but unable to explore the area in person; living as I do, in the wilds of Cumbria.
Regards.
Marilyn Messenger
The Manor House is still standing, situated on Manor Park Road. Spurgeon notes in his book that it was first built in the 16th C, but most of the current house is mid-19th C. The house was never a manor house in the real sense. The name was given to the house in the 19th C by George Baskcomb to improve its appeal after the many alterations made at that time. We would be interested in hearing about the contents of the letter if they add anything to the history of the house or of Chislehurst.
I hope you don't mind an email out of the blue, but I'm hoping you might have some leads for information on Grace Redpath. She and Peter Redpath lived somewhere called "The Manor House, Chislehurst, Kent, England". We have some photographs of the wedding of her neice Amy Redpath to Dr Thomas Roddick, which took place at the house in 1906.
We are researching the death of Amy's mother and brother, who died of gunshot in their house in Montreal on June 13, 1901. We are trying to find correspondence or other materials from or to Grace concerning this even. Do you know of any repositories of information about her or the Manor House? Thank you, David Theodore. PS A short biography is available here
Webb's History of Chislehurst contains information on the occupation of the Manor House, and confirms the Redpath's being there from 1881. After Peter's death in 1894, his wife continued to occupy the property, and she was a subscriber to Webb's History. We have had an emai from David Roddick who confirms the details of the wedding, and goes on to provide information on Dr Thomas Roddick:
In 1914 he (Dr Roddick) was created a Knight Batchelor by His Majesty King George V, and elected a fellow of the Royal Society of Canada. Donated by his wife, Lady Amy Roddick, in May 1925, McGill University opened the Roddick Gates to the University off Sherbrooke Street as a memorial to her late husband and to honour one of Canada's greatest medical figures. The Roddick Gates stood proudly for 75 years until they had to be demolished in 2000.
Mead House
I am wondering if you, or any of your members, can help me trace a family who live or lived at Mead House, Chislehurst.
My great-aunt, Kate Smithers, who died in 1968 aged 90, was in the army at Kandahar Barracks, Tidworth, Hants at the start of the first world war. Amongst her memorabelia is a newspaper cutting, including a photograph, reporting that Second-Lieutenant Basil Pryce Cuxson was killed in action on 15th July 1915. He was born in Sept 1890 and was apparently the only son of Mr. and Mrs. George Austin Pryce Cuxson of Mead House.
We have a hand written poem about life on the front which may have been sent to my great aunt by Lt. Cuxson. If we could trace his family it would be very interesting to know if they have any memorabilia of him and, if so, whether he had ever mentioned Aunt Kate - perhaps in a letter? Would they like a copy of the cutting?
It would appear from your web site that Mead House is now divided into flats but perhaps some of the family still live there or locally.
Also, if you have a memorial of the First World War, is 2nd Lt. Basil Pryce Cuscon listed there?
I would be most interested in any information thankyou.
Mike Smithers
I wonder if you could possibly help me. I was brought up in a childrens' home in Lubbock Road called Mount Zion, The couple who ran it were the Rev Emmanuelle Davidson and his wife who lived at Seven Trees next to the Church. I would dearly love to have any photos of the road but all searches i have made has failed to give me even an address I could write to. I would be eternally grateful if you could furnish me an address or website that would be of help
Thankyou J.W Fisk
Roy Hopper, our Cockpit Editor and local historian has been in contact with Joe Fisk, and an article in the Winter 2008 Edition of the Cockpit covers the history and signficance of this home.
I know that at various points you print "Pleas for help" in the Cockpit magazine to see if anyone can help with local history queries. We have recently moved into the above property on Ashfield Lane and have begun to try to find out what we can about its history.
What we know so far is that:
- The property was built sometime between 1844 and 1863 (it doesn't appear on the Tithe map but does appear on the map dated 1863). The property was part of the Frognal / Scadbury Estate so the owner was Viscount Sydney - although the property was not part of the sale in 1915 - so it was either sold before or after this date.
- In the 1871 census it was occupied by a Henry Smith (Merchant). By 1891 it was occupied by a Henry Wilkin and his wife . In the 1890's the Tiark family were interested in renting the property for an ageing Aunt - so it must have been a property of reasonable distinction at the time - it is named incidentally on the local maps of 1863 and 1897.
- In the early 1900's Dorothy McCall the author lived in the house - we believe that she may have written a "String of Beads" whilst living here.
- A couple called Enid and George lived in the house up until around 1996 (at a guess) - we are trying to find out more form the previous owner, the Hedley's then lived here and enlarged the property to give the appearance that it is today.
We have looked through various books so we know all about Ringer and the timber yard and the celery beds (although we don't actually think that Ringer lived in the adjoining property - which would have sat between Oak Cottage and Websters Cottages)
We have so far received help from Ron Hopper and Tony Allen - we are now desperate to try and find out anything else that we can (on the list are more census records / trips to the library etc etc). We have found a photo from 1984 in the Library but we would love to know more about the house, details, photo's , anything about the owners so we can try to piece together as much as possible
Hopefully you may be able to help - we look forward to hearing from you.
James and Kim Griffiths
Some years ago, about 1970, I seem to recall there being a Toc H club in Redhill.
As I work for the NHS as a driver, I often pop into the sugery at 11, Redhill.
Would you know if this building was in fact used by Toc H ? or was it another nearby.
I have contacted Toc H and they can only tell me that this branch closed in 1974.
It is rather ironic that I make this enquiry at this time,as I understand Toc H will cease trading at the end of this month,some 90 years since the end of WW1.
Hoping you have some information for me,as the staff at 11, Redhill are also interested as to the location of said club.
Regards David Morris
Do any of your members have any history about the NHS Willows Clinic on Red Hill next to Red Hill Primary School? The original building looks possibly circa 1920 but there have been some bits added on! Any information would be most gratefully received.
Many thanks Lyn Jones
I was born and raised in Chislehurst and went to St Nicholas School for my primary education in the early -mid 1960s (I was born in 1956) and now live in South Africa. Following a recent visit back to Chislehurst and very short visits back to the school and St Nicholas church I wonder if you can shed some light on a few things that jogged my memory.
I remember that if one stood with one's back to the school and looked across to the pit/playground, there used to be some kind of underground air raid shelter or war room (?) etc to the left of the pit. I well remember sneaking in there as a youngster! - When I asked a teacher about this, she didn't know what I was talking about at all - I wonder if you or anyone in the society knows about this and if so, what it was used for?
Also during my visit to the church just across from the school, I was struck by the suprising number of very old and weathered gravestones. Although these are badly eroded by weather etc. I thought I could see what appeared to be a number of 'cross patee' or maltese cross. The same cross is also depicted on the church itself and gates. Can you tell me if the area or church itself have any connection with the Knights Templar? - who also used the same cross.
Hope I haven't wasted your time with my daft questions!
Best Regards
Steve Robinson.
White River,
South Africa.
Paul Doble has sent us this response and another question:
Among the queries in the Researchers' Queries there is one by Steve Robinson of White River in South Africa headed St Nicholas Church and asking about the "shelters" to the left of St Nicholas School as you looked out over the pit.
Yes they were there - I attended the school in the late forties (when the headmaster was a Mr Davey from memory and the senior master was Mr Fox). My understanding was that they were air raid shelters but, I was very young at the time!!
I have a question - in the late 1950's a group of us formed a youth club assisted by a Major Oldendorf, who lived in Willow Grove. I think the major was involved since he had seen us all gather in 'the rec' and his motive was to facilitate a place where we could meet regularly. A sort of "lets get the kids off the streets" long before it was the right thing to do. I thought we met in the St Mary's Hall (where Sainsburys is today) but then I recall that the youth club there was a church youth club.Could there have been another hall in the high street - possibly a Red Cross hall. Maybe we met there. Perhaps Major Oldendorf was a committee member of Red Cross and was able to arrange the use of the hall?Can anybody remember?
Paul Double, Katikati, Bay of Plenty, New Zealand
I am interested in a house called "Walden" which stood where Yester Park is now situated. It was built by the 9th Marquess of Tweeddale (Viscount Walden) in the 19th century. I would be interested to know who was the architect and when it was demolished, and would be particularly pleased if you had any pictures of the original house.
Mr. William Henry Pinnock who lived there for some time around 1928 was my uncle, and I would like to know if you have any information on him. He later moved to "Fairmead" Hill Brow, where he died in 1947, so I would also be interested in any information on that house.
Yours sincerely,
Diana Willes
Rowlerson Family. Hi,I'm researching my family history,and have found my family living in Chatham House Chiselhurst,Kent,from 1918 onwards,name of Arthur and Florence or Florrie,sometimes Flora Rowlerson,any info at all on this House or family would be wonderfull. Also my family lived at Woodcliffe,Summer Hill Chiselhurst. I've had some rough info back on this house[which i think is no longer standing] but would like to know more,especially around 1918 period,again,any help at all would be great,Dave Hough. (Unfortunately we could not help here)
Rowles Family.
Recently I have been doing some research on a Mr & Mrs Rowles and their daughter Emily who I understand once owned Camden Place and were friends of Prince Louis Bonaparte. Mr & Mrs Rowles had previously lived in Stratton Street, London.
Mr Rowles eventually came to a trajic end but I am interested in finding out more about his earlier career and occupation. Mrs Rowles I beleive was a very beautiful Italian lady and I am keen to find out more about her and also her daughter Emily who I beleive married an Italian nobleman named Campana and went to live in Italy.
I have found the "Memoirs of Dr Thomas W. Evans - recollections of the second French Empire" very informative but I am wondering whether you or any of your members could direct me to sources where I could obtain more information.
I would be most grateful for any assistance.
Yours sincerely,
Derek Rowles
The Russell Family. Sir Walter Murton, 1836 to 1927, was my grandfather’s Uncle. He apparently wrote an autobiography entitled “Reminiscences”. I wonder whether you have seen, or know the whereabouts of any copies of this book.
One of my grandmothers was a Russell, who lived at and was married from “Golden Mead” in Mead Road, Chislehurst. I have photographs of her wedding taken in the garden of “G M” in 1904. Her father, William Campbell Russell, is buried in Chislehurst.
I also have family connections through the Russell family with the Teichman family of “Sitka” in Chislehurst. I believe the family were involved with the Hudson’s Bay Company and the founding of Sitka in Alaska.
Let me know, if any of this is of interest to your Society.
And later........Thank you for your emails.
I attach photographs of the Russell family at “Golden Mead”, or possibly “Furzefield”. The family group must be late 1800’s and, I believe, shows from left to right: my grandmother, Sylvia Russell, her grandmother, Rosetta Mantell, Edgar Russell, Mrs Russell and Rosetta Margaret (Daisy) Russell in front of the three servants and Noel Russell on the pony with the groom.
The wedding photos were on the occasion of my grandmother’s marriage to Cecil Murton Strouts on 19 July 1904. I am not completely sure who’s who in the group photo. The cleric may be the vicar of St Mary and all the Angels, H Lloyd Th????, who officiated at the wedding.
At present I do not have much more easily accessible information. In passing I have a Napoleon III 5 franc piece from my grandmother. Is this a fairly common coin for the people of C’hurst to have from the time when he lived in exile?
Best wishes, Giles N Wilson
Fodor family. I recently came upon your web site and am writing in the hope that you may be able to solve a long standing family history problem I have. Basically William Fodor's wife came to New Zealand c1879/80 and I am her G grandson. No one at present alive in NZ nor any records left give any indication of where she or William came from or their background. What is known, if this is the correct word for it, is as follows: From family sources - William was the Comptroller of the French 'Court" in exile. He is reputed to have met the Empress upon her arrival in Dover and offered her Camden Place then owned by Mr Nathaniel Strode for whom he worked as his "Steward". It is assumed that he spent much of the 2 weeks the Empress was in Dover at Dover or Chislehurst and became "Comptroller" (unpaid we understand) upon the Empress's arrival at Chislehurst possibly continuing to act for Mr Strode in order to safeguard Mr Stode's property which was rented for Pd500 per year. One month later William was killed in a carriage accident and his wife Georgina was badly injured. He was buried in Chislehurst, his wife continued to reside in Lower Camden and I can only assume that Georgina continued an association with the Empress until departing for New Zealand. I am unsure if this was before or after the Empress had left Chislehurst I have found from directories that she seems to have left Lower Camden about 1878 or 9. I have part of the local newspaper account of the accident at Eltham and a record of his death. William's father was supposed to be Matthew Fodor. This account refers to him as a Russian gentleman but this to me may not be correct ?? Could he have been French or Austrian ?? One son George Ferdinand Fodor who came to New Zealand - my g father said in the 1870 English census and his marriage certificate in NZ that he was born in "Russia" No record of Georgina can be found - her father was supposed to be George De La Hoyde - physician, and an earlier marriage to a George Menzies from which there was a daughter who came to NZ. I have searched for a George De La Hoyde and a few days ago found that there is an entry in the 1856 Irish Medical Register a Geo DELAHOYDE Physician Dublin. This I have yet to check further and hope that the Wellcome Foundation Medical History Foundation may be able to follow up for me. I have a copy of William and Georgina's marriage document - they were married in St Andrew Holborn London Middlesex on 30 March 1864 William was then described as an Artist living as was Georgina in High Holborn and William's father Matthew Foder ( note spelt with an E but this may be a mistake) and having the Rank or Profession of "Gentleman". Georgina Fodor settled in Dunedin the opposite side of the world, "the end of the world", a small town populated largely by Scots and a few English at that time and without the social activities which it was said she had been accustomed to. Why she chose Dunedin is an absolute mystery. She insisted upon being called "Madam Fodor" and she brought with her George F Fodor who became an artist ( my direct relative ) born Russia c 1860, Helen / Helene Gertrude Fodor born Middlesex 1868 and Emily Gertrude Menzies the daughter from the first marriage. Left in England, although NZ family tradition suggests Europe, was Constantine Fodor, about whom nothing is known. If it is possible to locate William's will there may be an indication of his background and finances etc for it is possible that the family may not have left England until the "Boys" were 21 years of age and able to inherit from their father. Georgina lived in NZ until 1900 (Bn c1823) and must have had reasonable sum of money as she appears to have arrived as a NON - assisted immigrant so no direct record of her arrival , and in NZ she had no visible source of income. I seem to remember that about 1895 a book was published in Chislehurst which recorded headstones in cemeteries in the district. I have a photo of what I understand was William's grave but understand that the inscription has worn to illegibility. If my memory is correct and there is a record if inscriptions would it be possible to email me a copy please. Finally I wonder if part of my answers may be with Mr Nathaniel Strode. How William came to be "Steward to Mr Strode, of Camden House" ( Kent Express & Ashford News report of William's death) may give some understanding. Strode received Fr 900,000 from Napoleon III civil list. The Fodor's appear to have been fluent in French, appear to have been on the fringe of the Russian Court, may have been employed by Strode for some time looking after property in Russia and France, or could Fodor have been the minor Austrian diplomat who was supposed to have taken jewellery of the Empress through a Princess and placed in the Bank of England where he was for some time employed according to one author of a book on the Empress. Strode was trusted by the Napoleon household for he was trustee for Piccadilly property the income of which went to Napoleon II and was used for his political advancement. Why did he employ Fodor ? What background did he or his wife have which was acceptable not only to him but also the Emperor and Empress especially ? These questions might be the key to the question who were William Fodor and Georgina De La Hoyde / Menzies / Fodor. Did their social standing have something to do with a family tie to M Fodor the opera singer of Paris,London, Naples and St Petersburg for whom Rossini changed arias, and the Fodor conductor / composer in St Petersburg and the Fodor family of musicians,composer and artist in S E Holland and through this extended family a good series of social contacts for Strode? So many questions but few answers. I am sorry to have taken so much of your time. In NZ it is difficult to obtain much information although the internet is a blessing although limited. Should you be able to assist me with ANY further information or leads I would be very grateful. The Centre for Kentish Studies has been helpful but as things appear to me now should I go back to them it should be with more definite leads on where information might be found. - Robert Brown Auckland New Zealand
Gosling family of Greatwood College. I now live in Surrey. am trying to fill in gaps from my past. In 1955 I was sent as a young four year old Nigerian girl to a couple called the Goslings( the wife’s Christian name was Edna, I think.) who ran a foreign Language College at Greatwood College. I am sure it was called that and I think it was on Yester road. In the 70s when my husband and I tried to find it and wandered aimlessly around, a passerby told me that the area had been redeveloped in the 60s. The Goslings were my guardians for a few years before I was sent to board at Farringtons Junior School. They disappeared mysteriously off to Australia. As far as I knew, they had no children, just students from all over the world who were much older than I was. Unfortunately I have no details as relations with my parents have been estranged for many years. All correspondence I used to have that might have helped is no longer in my possession. If you can fill in any tiny detail, I would be grateful. Regards Yeside Linney
This enquiry has produced some intriguing information about Greatwood, the house, the College, and the Gosling family who co-owned the house and ran the College. Click here to download notes and photographs.
Cruttenden. I am researching the family name Cruttenden for over 25 years and have two interests in Chislehurst, My own family lived at Chislehurst, and Bevil Cruttenden.
1. My Cruttenden Family.
My 2 x great grandfather, Benjamin Cruttenden moved to Chislehurst from St Leonards-on-sea, Sussex, sometime before 1878.
In the 1881 Census he is recorded as living at Wembourn Cottages, The Commons, with his second wife and daughter.
Would these cottages be extant? If not do you know where they were?
The family remained in Chislehurst until 1983 when my grand-aunt Louie Cruttenden died a 2 Camden Grove, where the family had lived since before 31 March 1901.
Does anyone know when the properties at that end of Camden Grove were built?
Benjamin’s son Frederick Charles Cruttenden lived a Camden Grove. Both were plumbers.
There was a ‘lodge’ of the Oddfellows Society in Chislehurst of which FCC was a Grandmaster.
Are there any records of this society that would support FCC’s membership?
2. Bevil Cruttenden.
Bevil Cruttenden was buried in St Nicholas churchyard on 12 September 1745.
In 1743 he was living at South Barrow (Bromley) (according to a letter at the Bromley Library) and later that year was in Chislehurst.
I have a copy of an inventory made in 1745 concerning the contents of his house in Chislehurst.
I am trying to identify where his house was. Do you know of any mention of the Cruttenden family in Chislehurst in the mid 1740s?
Bevil Cruttenden was a merchant who in 1738 was at Calcutta in Bengal, India.
According to his will he had a black servant known as Jesert, to whom he left fifty pounds and made him free.
Any help with these matters would be greatly appreciated.
Ian Cruttenden
Gribayedoff. I am a professional genealogist currently researching a project for a client in America. She is descended from a well documented 19th century journalist and illustrator Valerian Gribayedoff. From research she has carried out herself and from family knowledge it would appear that Valerian’s father Colonel Gribayedoff and his wife Anna Butterlin/Buturlin/Boutourline came to England from Russia in the 1860s/70s, and Valerian received some of his education in this country. She has also seen the transcript of a newspaper interview given by Valerian in America in 1885 in which he talks about his father, who may have been one of the Tsar’s Imperial Guard, having some involvement with Emperor Louis Napoleon’s residence in Chislehurst.
I have read the information on Louis Napoleon on the Chislehurst Society website, and was wondering whether, as a local historian, you had ever come across the name Gribayedoff or anything similar in your researches. I would be interested as well to know of the location of resources relating to the time Louis Napoleon spent in Chislehurst. Are these likely to be in Bromley Library? Are you aware of other repositories I might contact in pursuing this project?
I look forward to hearing from you.Mike Trenchard
Other features of Chislehurst
Chislehurst Caves
I stumbled on your web site this afternoon and it made a fascinating read, but I would like to query the information you have concerning the Caves:
“There are more than 20 miles of dark and mysterious passageways in the caves. They are entirely man made, and are know to have been worked for the extraction of chalk since at least 1250. They were being worked in the mid-19th Century, but since 1865 they have been used only as a tourist attraction, and a venue for concerts. During the Second World War they were used for shelter from air raids, and many families sheltered there on a regular basis. They are accessed from Old Hill.”
In particular the line “but since 1865 they have been used only as a tourist attraction”. Has anyone checked this because it was not what I was told as a boy by my father. My great grandfather, Alfred Harland, used to own the chalk brickworks located at Chislehurst caves in the late 19th century, and as far as I understood it, he owned the caves as well. Back in the early 70s I checked up on this by visiting a local library, would have been Petts Wood, Chislehurst or Orpington, can’t remember which , and looking in a book which I think was called the Chislehurst Gazette. Sorry to be vague but it was a long time ago. I found a copy of this Gazette going back to 1870 or 1880 and my great grandfather’s business is mentioned. I think I made a copy of this at the time and if I remember I’ll try to see if I still have it.
Another story I was told. When the Germans bombed Buckingham Palace during the war bricks for it’s repair were made using chalk from the Caves.
My great grandfather, according to my mother, was fond of the drink and had to sell the business. His son also called Alfred, my grandfather, founded the milk and groceries delivery business the Westhurst Dairy which older residents of Chislehurst may remember.
Yours faithfully,
Anthony Harland